[House Hearing, 119 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                      ASSESSING THE CHALLENGES FACING NATO

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                                 OF THE

                         SUBCOMMITTEE ON EUROPE

                               BEFORE THE

                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                              June 4, 2025

                               __________

                           Serial No. 119-21

                               __________

        Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
        
 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]       


Available: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov, http://docs.house.gov, 
                       or http://www.govinfo.gov
                       
                                __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
61-400 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2025                  
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     

                     COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                    BRIAN J. MAST, Florida, Chairman
MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas             GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York, 
CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey         Ranking Member
JOE WILSON,, South Carolina          BRAD SHERMAN, California
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania            GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
DARRELL ISSA, California             WILLIAM R. KEATING, Massachusetts
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee              AMI BERA, California
MARK E. GREEN, Tennessee             JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
ANDY BARR, Kentucky                  DINA TITUS, Nevada
RONNY JACKSON, Texas                 TED LIEU, California
YOUNG KIM, California                SARA JACOBS, California
MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida        SHEILA CHERFILUS-McCORMICK, 
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan                  Florida
AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       GREG STANTON, Arizona
    American Samoa                   JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio                JONATHAN L. JACKSON, Illinois
JAMES R. BAIRD, Indiana              SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California
THOMAS H. KEAN, JR, New Jersey       JIM COSTA, California
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York             GABE AMO, Rhode Island
CORY MILLS, Florida                  KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
RICHARD McCORMICK, Georgia           PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
KEITH SELF, Texas                    GEORGE LATIMER, New York
RYAN K. ZINKE, Montana               JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI Jr, Maryland
JAMES C. MOYLAN, Guam                JULIE JOHNSON, Texas
ANNA PAULINA LUNA, Florida           SARAH McBRIDE, Delaware
JEFFERSON SHREVE, Indiana            BRADLEY SCOTT SCHNEIDER, Illinois
SHERI BIGGS, South Carolina          MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington
RYAN MACKENZIE, Pennsylvania

              James Langenderfer, Majority Staff Director 
                 Sajit Gandhi, Minority Staff Director 
                                 ------                                

                         SUBCOMMITTEE ON EUROPE

                       KEITH SELF, Texas, Chairman
 MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas            WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts, 
 JOE WILSON, South Carolina              Ranking Member
 MARK GREEN, Tennessee                DINA TITUS, Nevada
 YOUNG KIM, California                JIM COSTA, California
 WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio                GABE AMO, Rhode Island
 ANNA PAULINA LUNA, Florida           JULIE JOHNSON, Texas
                                      SARAH McBRIDE, Delaware

               Michael Koren, Subcommittee Staff Director
                        
                        
                        C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                            REPRESENTATIVES

                                                                   Page
Opening Statement of Subcommittee Chairman Keith Self............     1
Opening Statement of Subcommittee Ranking Member William Keating.     2

                               WITNESSES

Statement of Rear Admiral (Retired) Mark Montgomery, Ccti Senior 
  Director and Senior Fellow, Foundation for The Defense of 
  Democracies....................................................     4
  Prepared Statement.............................................     7
Statement of Nile Gardiner, Director, Margaret Thatcher Center 
  for Freedom, The Heritage Foundation...........................    21
  Prepared Statement.............................................    23
Statement of Hon. Julianne Smith, Former U.S. Permanent 
  Representative to Nato, U.S. Department of State...............    27
  Prepared Statement.............................................    29

                                APPENDIX

Hearing Notice...................................................    60
Hearing Minutes..................................................    61
Hearing Attendance...............................................    62

                        Material for the Record

Rep. Davidson material for the record............................    63

                        Questions for the Record

Questions to Mark Montgomery submitted by Chairman Keith Self....    73
Questions to Nile Gardiner submitted by Chairman Keith Self......    76
Questions to Julianne Smith submitted by Chairman Keith Self.....    78

 
                  ASSESSING THE CHALLENGES FACING NATO

                              ----------                              


                        Wednesday, June 4, 2025

                  House of Representatives,
                             Subcommittee on Europe
                              Committee on Foreign Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.

    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in 
room 2200, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Keith Self 
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Mr. Self. The Subcommittee on Europe will come to order. 
The purpose of this hearing is to provide members with an 
informed perspective of the U.S. policy toward NATO and an 
opportunity to discuss NATO's trajectory in advance of the June 
summit in The Hague.
    I now recognize myself for an opening statement.

            OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN KEITH SELF

    The Hague will be focused on funding for NATO. This first 
chart--and would you put it up and blow it up as much as you 
can-shows the NATO nations. They are listed top to bottom by 
GDP. They are listed on the right side by the percentage that 
they provide. Can you blow that up more?
    Okay, so I want to just talk you through this. Of course 
U.S. is at the top, almost $29 trillion in GDP. Then you go 
down to Germany, U.K., France, Italy, Canada, and Spain. Down 
here you have got the front-line countries, you have got 
Lithuania, you have got Latvia, you have got Estonia. Some of 
the Balkan countries are down below.
    The ones that I want to point--and the summit tells us that 
they are going to be going above 3 percent.
    So I want to point out right here, we have got some, the 
major economies in NATO, specifically France, Italy, and 
Canada, that are well below--Italy, Canada, and Spain, I am 
sorry, that are well below their current 2 percent of 
commitment. These are major economies, this is a major change 
that needs to happen at the summit. Next slide.
    Now, just a couple of comparisons. This compares Poland to 
everyone else on the Eastern Flank, the Eastern Flank being 
defined as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Bulgaria, and 
Hungary. Poland has a GDP of about $840 billion. Eastern Flank 
is 890. So they are not dissimilar.
    The defense budgets are quite a bit dissimilar. Their 
percentage, though, Poland is at over 4 percent currently and 
going higher. The Eastern Flank is at 2.36 and going higher, 
and it has already committed to go higher. Next slide.
    And one more just to give you an idea of where funding in 
NATO stands, this is Germany versus the Eastern Flank. So we 
have added Poland to the east of Germany. So Germany has the 
4.6, Eastern Flank has 1.7. Here are the defense budgets. Look 
at this: the Eastern Flank is providing a higher percentage 
than Germany is.
    So my point in all of these three slides is there is work 
to do in the summit later this month. Now, I know that people 
have made commitments, but what you just saw were 2024, the 
last we had a full year's funding toward NATO. That is a major 
problem that I wanted to highlight. We have got other issues in 
this briefing, but that is the one that I wanted to start with.
    The first thing we have to start with is everyone pulling 
their weight in NATO. With that, I yield back, and I recognize 
the ranking member----
    Mr. Costa. Mr. Chairman?
    Mr. Self. Mr. Keating.
    Mr. Costa. Can I make a question inquiry to the chair? 
Those are important charts that you just presented. Could you 
make copies so that we could look at them here and----
    Mr. Self. Let's have copies made so----
    Mr. Costa. Shouldn't be that difficult for the staff.
    Mr. Self. And pass out. Absolutely, so we can do it now, 
Okay.
    Mr. Costa. Okay, thank you.
    Mr. Self. Thank you, Mr. Costa, we will do that.
    Mr. Keating. I don't know if this is working. How is this? 
Oh, good, all right, here we go. Thank you.

      OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER WILLIAM KEATING

    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this 
important hearing today, and I want to thank our witnesses for 
their participation in today's hearing.
    More than 75 years ago in the wake of World War II, the 
North Atlantic Treaty Organization was established to forge a 
safe, secure, and prosperous transatlantic alliance. From its 
inception, NATO's founding charter and its Article 5 principle 
of collective defense have been the underpinning of our 
national security and that of our European partners as well.
    We saw this in action after 9/11, when our allies 
sacrificed treasure and blood in our defense. NATO's necessity 
came into full view in February 2022, when the Russian 
Federation initiated a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Since 
the invasion, NATO has marshaled billions of dollars in 
military support to the Ukrainians, who have defended the front 
line of freedom at great human cost.
    During the 2024 Washington Summit, support of Ukraine 
within NATO was clear as allies agreed that Russia remains the 
most significant and direct threat to the security of the 
alliance. Just 1 year later, the Russian threat to NATO remains 
all-oppressing and the more real.
    At that summit, NATO allies also agreed to increase defense 
spending to build on the alliance deterrence. Countries like 
Poland and the Baltic States have well exceeded the 2-percent 
mark, while others, like the United Kingdom and Germany, have 
committed to pass legislation to ensure their defense spending 
increases in accordance with the alliance's requirements.
    Meanwhile, other countries have lagged behind the 2-percent 
mark, and it is absolutely imperative that all allies commit to 
adequate defense spending levels at the upcoming NATO summit in 
The Hague.
    Unfortunately, NATO continues to face serious threats to 
its security. The Trump administration, its policy toward NATO 
has been inconsistent and chaotic. It is no wonder that the 
alliance is just confused about where Trump and his cabinet are 
in these critical issues.
    On the war in Ukraine, Trump's Secretary of State has said 
Russia started it. Meanwhile, President Trump said Ukraine 
started it. Trump's Secretary of the Treasury says Putin is a 
war criminal. Trump's chief negotiator for Russia, Steve 
Witkoff, said Putin is not a bad guy, and that he is 
trustworthy.
    Secretary of State often said Putin was a war criminal. 
When I questioned him 2 weeks ago, Secretary of State wouldn't 
say that. At the United Nations, the Trump administration 
abandoned our allies on a resolution, siding with Russia, 
Belarus, and North Korea. It is no wonder Trump's Ambassador to 
Ukraine, Bridget Brink, resigned, citing policy disagreements.
    As we approach the 76th NATO summit in The Hague later this 
month, the Trump administration must take advantage of the 
opportunity and set the record straight.
    First, the administration must not step back from its 
leadership role in NATO. Reported proposals to abandon the 
Supreme Allied Commander for Europe, their European position, 
or reduce the focus that is there in the force posture in 
Europe, because any of this will do nothing but harm the 
deterrent effect of our alliance.
    Second, the Trump administration must continue to encourage 
allies and partners to spend more on defense. I know this 
sentiment is bipartisan, and I want to thank Secretary General 
Rutte for, as well as former Secretary General Stoltenberg and 
Ambassador Smith, for your work on doing this in the previous 
administration.
    Third, the Trump administration must make clear at the 
upcoming NATO summit that the United States and the entire 
alliance is prepared to increase the cost on Russia for its 
ongoing war of aggression in Ukraine.
    This must start with acknowledging the facts on the ground, 
something that the Secretary of State was unable to do when he 
testified before this committee last month. This includes 
telling the truth. Russia is the aggressive State. Vladimir 
Putin is a war criminal who has carried out atrocious crimes in 
Ukraine, including the kidnaping of 20,000 children.
    And the United States must hold the Kremlin accountable for 
this war and the horrific crimes Russia has committed in its 
wake. Anything less represents a failure of American leadership 
and an inability to uphold key American values.
    Finally, the Trump administration must buildupon the prior 
administration's effort to expand NATO's relationship with the 
Indo-Pacific countries. Russia's war in Ukraine has a direct 
implication on the Taiwan Strait, and ensuring robust 
relationships with our Indo-Pacific allies is vitally important 
for this transatlantic relationship.
    I want to thank our witnesses again for being here, and I 
yield back the balance of my time.
    Mr. Self. Other members of the committee are reminded that 
opening statements may be submitted for the record.
    We are pleased to have a distinguished panel of witnesses 
before us today on this important topic. I was extremely 
impressed with the written testimony of all three.
    I would like to start and introduce and Rear Admiral 
(Retired) Mark Montgomery, CCTI Senior Director and Senior 
Fellow at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.
    Sir, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

                STATEMENT OF ADMIRAL MONTGOMERY

    Admiral Montgomery. Chairman Self, Ranking Member Keating, 
distinguished members of the committee, on behalf of the 
Foundation for Defense of Democracies, thank you for having me 
here to testify.
    Look, we are here to discuss the future of NATO, the 
alliance that successfully led the western democracies through 
the cold war and the U.S. triumph over the Soviet Union.
    And I think that while the political, security, and 
economic dynamics have changed markedly over the past 30 years, 
I firmly believe that NATO can still serve as the organizing 
principle that guides the transatlantic alliance through the 
challenges posed by a really rapacious, authoritarian State, 
Russia, as well as the Chinese-led axis of aggressors that 
really supports and enables Russia.
    For far too long, many of our NATO allies have ignored 
these threats. They have failed to invest in the alliance. 
Chairman Self's diagram showed you that. They have even failed 
to invest in their own defense. And warnings by successive 
Republican and Democratic presidents went unheeded for 30 
years.
    However, thanks to Vladimir Putin's violent military 
aggression against Ukraine and its persistent efforts to 
undermine democratic governments in the Balkans and throughout 
Eastern Europe, and combined with President Trump's vocal 
complaints about European defense spending, we are starting to 
see NATO members finally stepping out to the plate.
    I, too, appreciate Secretary General Mark Rutte as he has 
directed NATO member-he anticipates now that NATO members will 
agree to increase their defense spending target to 5 percent of 
gross domestic product, GDP, at the NATO summit in June. This 
increased spending is essential, and President Trump has been 
right to call out the previous European apathy on this issue.
    And that reason is because Russian and Chinese threats 
challenge the territorial integrity, democratic stability, and 
economic prosperity of NATO. Neither Russia nor China will be 
cajoled or coddled into compliance or even peaceful 
coexistence. And both Europe and America need to recognize that 
we are in a long-term fight with the axis of aggressors.
    But between these two authoritarians, the chief threat to 
peace and democracy in Europe is Russia. And Putin is not some 
misunderstood regional leader or an aggrieved actor reacting to 
NATO expansion. He is instead a stone-cold killer. He has 
launched wars of conquest, invading his neighbors three times 
in the past 20 years.
    He has ruthlessly and violently crushed democratic 
movements growing in his hinterlands. And he is currently 
harassing, torturing, and murdering his domestic critics.
    If NATO is going to prevail against this Russian menace, it 
is going to need U.S. leadership. It is going to need European 
defense investments. And it is going to need collective action 
to punish its adversaries.
    My written testimony covered ten recommendations to achieve 
success. I would like to highlight five of them here. First is 
the one Chairman Self highlighted: we need to establish and 
maintain NATO defense spending targets at 5 percent of GDP.
    NATO's national governments, even those not within range of 
Russia's long-range fires, must commit to Secretary General 
Rutte's proposed new spending pledge of 3.5 percent of the GDP 
on defense and another 1.5 percent on defense enablers, like 
their industrial base, infrastructure protection, and cyber 
security. This includes the United States.
    Second, we need to act to protect the critical 
infrastructure essential to NATO's military mobility. Moving 
troops and equipment efficiently over land, sea, and air is 
essential to NATO's ability to project power and sustain forces 
to fight and win our wars.
    European countries must prioritize critical infrastructure 
spending to align with NATO's war plans, not their domestic 
plans, particularly as it relates to flowing U.S., U.K., and 
French forces into and through Europe.
    Third, we need to maintain U.S. enablers and force posture 
in Europe. NATO strength is measured by how quickly it can move 
and fight. That speed depends on U.S. enablers, our strategic 
lift, our operational logistics, our intelligence, our command-
and-control infrastructures.
    These are capabilities that no other NATO ally can provide. 
That is why forward-stationing U.S. forces and equipment across 
Europe is essential to NATO's warfighting capacity. The answer 
to this challenge from Russia is not for America to do less, 
but for Europe to do more.
    Fourth, we need to arm Ukraine to defend itself and survive 
and not force Ukraine to agree to an unacceptable cease-fire 
negotiated under duress, or even worse, to lose the war.
    And Ukraine needs two things above all else. First, they 
need constant U.S. intelligence support. And second, they need 
access to the American-made munitions for them or for Europe to 
purchase.
    And then fifth, we have to punish Russia for its 
aggression. Putin will only change his calculus if the cost of 
continuing the war becomes unsustainable for him. The United 
States and Europe must increase pressure and impose costs on 
Russia by ramping up sanctions on the Russian war machine, 
starting with its energy revenues and the shadow fleet of 
fossil fuel deliverers that support that.
    In summary, I think we need a comprehensive transatlantic 
effort: defense budget that reflect today's challenges, the 
resilience to withstand assaults from adversaries, and a clear-
eyed commitment to the alliance. If we have those three pillars 
in place, the United States and its European allies will once 
again prevail over the forces that threaten peace and security, 
both in Europe and globally.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify, and I look 
forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Admiral Montgomery follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT
    
    Mr. Self. Thank you, Admiral. We had a clock malfunction, 
just like they do in basketball games. But thank you for your 
testimony.
    I now introduce Dr. Nile Gardiner, Director of the Margaret 
Thatcher Center for Freedom and Bernard and Barbara Lomas 
Fellow at The Heritage Foundation.
    Welcome, sir. You are recognized for 5 minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF NILE GARDINER

    Mr. Gardiner. My name is Nile Gardiner, I am the Director 
of the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom at The Heritage 
Foundation. The views I express in this testimony are my own. 
My remarks today are a summary of my written statement.
    NATO remains the essential force that holds back the 
Russian bear on its eastern flank and keeps in check the 
imperialist ambitions of Vladimir Putin's murderous regime. Its 
role is vital in the defense of Europe in the face of Russian 
aggression.
    Without NATO, the brutal reality is that Russian forces 
would very likely today be rolling into the Baltic States and 
deep into Europe. We should not underestimate Putin's 
malevolent intentions and his desire to conquer further 
territory in Europe.
    To sustain the alliance, America's NATO allies must fully 
participate in burden-sharing with the United States. The Trump 
presidency is rightly applying pressure on America's allies to 
do far more to foster true partnership rather than dependency, 
especially as the U.S. must increasingly focus on the immense 
threat from communist China in the Indo-Pacific.
    This cannot be a two-tier alliance where the United States 
carries the overwhelming military burden for the defense of the 
free world while some European allies build vast welfare 
states. In 2024, only 22 NATO members spent the 2-percent of 
GDP on defense agreed to by the alliance in 2014. This is 
hugely irresponsible.
    This includes some of the biggest nations in NATO, 
including Italy, Spain, and Canada. Last year, Canada 
embarrassingly spent just 1.4 percent of GDP on defense, a 
shockingly low figure for the world's tenth largest economy.
    As Heritage Foundation research has shown, European NATO 
members have collectively underfunded their own defense by $827 
billion since 2014, nearly equal to the entire annual U.S. 
defense budget. This is a staggering figure.
    As NATO leaders gather shortly in The Hague, there is, 
however, growing cause for optimism. President Trump's tough-
love strategy has made a tremendous impact. In just the first 
few months of his presidency, Donald Trump has already 
significantly strengthened the resolve of the NATO alliance.
    President Trump is not the destroyer of NATO, as his 
critics allege, but the savior of NATO. Trump's presidency is a 
wake-up call for a complacent alliance that had been 
sleepwalking to decline and possible self-destruction.
    Thanks to U.S. leadership today, which was strikingly 
absent under Joe Biden, who was barely in command on the world 
stage, the complacency of past decades has been thrown out of 
the window.
    Since Donald Trump took office in January, there has been a 
dramatic change of approach among our 31 NATO partners, 
including Europe's economic powerhouse of Germany, with nearly 
every European NATO member announcing plans to significantly 
increase defense spending, enhance overall military 
capabilities, and grow the defense industrial base. This is the 
Trump effect in action across the Atlantic.
    But words are not enough. It is time for all of American's 
NATO allies to make a firm commitment to immediately match 
America's current spending level of 3.5 percent of GDP and 
pledge to raise defense spending to 5 percent of GDP.
    The U.S. also cannot allow NATO to be undercut by grandiose 
visions of a European Union army that would split the alliance 
and divert vital resources away from NATO. One of the biggest 
threats to the future of NATO is posed by French President 
Emmanuel Macron's calls for greater strategic autonomy for 
Europe, moving away from the United States and moving closer to 
an accommodation with Beijing.
    The United States must fight the flawed notion that 
Europe's security rests upon delusional ideas of a militarily 
powerful EU which would replace NATO nation-State cooperation 
with Brussels-imposed sovereign nationalism. Macron's perilous 
rhetoric is exactly what Russian President Vladimir Putin and 
Chinese Premier Xi Jinping wish to hear.
    The U.S. should also strongly opposed the massively 
reckless and incredibly dangerous decision taken by Britain's 
socialist government, led by Keir Starmer, to hand over direct 
control of the Chagos Islands to Mauritius, a close Chinese 
ally. The islands are the home of the vital Anglo-American 
military base of Diego Garcia.
    This is a major gift to communist China at Britain's 
expense and greatly undermines U.S. strategic interests and 
NATO cohesion. The Chagos surrender is the worst foreign policy 
move by a British prime minister in the modern era, and a 
betrayal of the U.S.-U.K. special relationship.
    In conclusion, the United States has a significant national 
interest in supporting a strong NATO alliance. A secure Europe 
and a robust transatlantic alliance greatly advances the 
security of the American people.
    American exceptionalism is the most powerful force for 
liberty in the world today. It is greatly strengthened by 
American's alliances, and NATO is at the very heart of the 
transatlantic partnership. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Gardiner follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT
    
    Mr. Self. Thank you, sir. I now recognize Hon. Julianne 
Smith, former U.S. Permanent Representative to NATO at the U.S. 
State Department. Recognized for 5 minutes.

                STATEMENT OF MS. JULIANNE SMITH

    Ms. Smith. Chairman Self, Ranking Member Keating, members 
of the committee, thank you for the opportunity today to speak 
to you about NATO.
    For more than 75 years, NATO has been the bedrock of 
transatlantic security. From the cold war to the Balkans, from 
counterterrorism to cyber defense, the alliance has 
consistently adapted to meet new challenges. Yet NATO's 
enduring strength lies not only in its military might, but in 
the shared values of its members and their collective 
commitment to defend one another.
    For these past decades, NATO has superbly served both U.S. 
and European interests by keeping the peace in Europe, which 
allowed our economies to boom. In recent years, NATO has 
undergone one of its most significant transformations in 
decades.
    In response to Russia's vicious invasion of Ukraine, the 
alliance has shown historic unity and resolve. Every single 
member of the alliance has offered economic, humanitarian, or 
military support to Ukraine. And NATO launched a new NATO 
Ukraine council to enable Ukraine to sit at the table as an 
equal partner.
    NATO also welcomed two new members, Finland and Sweden, and 
on the Eastern Flank, NATO established for new multinational 
battalions, bolstering the alliance's forward defense posture 
from the Baltic to the Black Sea.
    At the same time, NATO has expanded its partnerships in the 
Indo-Pacific. That reflects our shared recognition that 
security challenges like cyber-attacks are increasingly global. 
In 2022, NATO mentioned China in its strategic concept for the 
very first time. And most critically, we have seen a striking 
rise in European defense spending.
    Allies are investing more in their own security. Today, 23 
allies spend 2 percent of their GDP on defense, up from six 
just 4 years ago. That momentum is set to accelerate.
    Later this month, NATO leaders will gather in The Hague for 
their annual summit. Allies are expected to announce a new 
commitment to spend 3.5 percent of GDP on hard defense and 
another 1.5 percent on related items like infrastructure. This 
is very good news.
    For decades, Europeans have under-invested in their own 
security, and due to Europe's generous military support to 
Ukraine in recent years, the current capability gaps in Europe 
are acute. We should celebrate this progress, but we must also 
be clear-eyed about some of the associated challenges, and let 
me mention just three.
    First, more money alone will not fix the fragmentation of 
Europe's defense industrial base. Without meaningful work to 
coordinate procurement, standardize requirements, and deepen 
defense industrial cooperation, this influx of funding runs the 
risk of simply reinforcing the inefficiencies that have long 
plagued European defense.
    Consider tanks. Unlike the U.S., which fields a single main 
battle tank, the M1, NATO's European members have more than a 
dozen different types of tanks. This kind of fragmentation 
complicates joint operations, undermines NATO's cohesion, and 
slows production and procurement. NATO must ensure that 
increased spending leads to increased capability, not just 
duplicated or siloed efforts.
    Second, spending needs a strategy, and right now the 
alliance lacks a coherent approach to dealing with Russia 
beyond deterrence. NATO's long-term posture remains unsettled, 
and so do our collection objectives regarding Moscow.
    NATO allies created a plan to tackle such questions when 
they committed last year to unveil a new Russia strategy during 
this year's summit in The Hague. But the alliance paused work 
on that strategy for fear that it might not reach consensus in 
the current political climate.
    That was a mistake. Without a clearly articulated and 
forward-looking Russia strategy, we risk losing the political 
rationale for sustained investment.
    Finally, the alliance today is grappling with a growing 
trust deficit, which is quietly shaping the way that allies 
approach increased defense spending. Many European governments 
worry that U.S. support for NATO is now conditional and subject 
to sudden shifts.
    Some allies worry about the recent U.S. shift away from 
support for Ukraine. These new uncertainties are leading allies 
to hedge their bets. Instead of making bold, long-term 
investments in shared NATO capabilities or better co-production 
efforts with the United States, some allies are focusing solely 
on capabilities made in Europe.
    Unless this trust gap is addressed directly with steady 
U.S. leadership, transparency, and a shared strategic vision, 
America's security will be undermined and the alliance as a 
whole will risk missing the full potential of the current 
momentum.
    In sum, NATO remains the most successful military alliance 
in history, and it is crucial to both U.S. and European 
security. But the way we manage this moment will define the 
next generation of transatlantic security.
    We must lead with vision, with principle, with humility. 
And we must invest wisely and anchor our efforts in strategy 
and solidarity.
    Thank you very much, and I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Smith follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT
    
    Mr. Self. Thank you very much for three strong testimoneys. 
I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
    I want to start with, yes, I want to start with what I 
think is one of the most unstable areas of NATO, and that is in 
the Western Balkans. As you know, or may not know, General 
Cavoli told me in my recent visit with him that Bosnia and 
Herzegovina could collapse overnight.
    And you may remember back in 1999, NATO in actually their 
first operation, went to war for Kosovo by bombing Serbia. We 
now have, and if you look at the map, you have Slovenia, you 
have Croatia, there is Bosnia, there is Montenegro, there is 
Albania, there is Bulgaria, there is Romania surrounding three 
entities that are not part of NATO. Everyone I just named are 
part of NATO.
    You have got Bosnia-Herzegovina that is split between the 
Croata and the Republika Srpska. You have got Serbia, and you 
have got Kosovo. Kosovo wants to be, the President tells me 
that NATO membership of Kosovo is the most important issue for 
Kosovo. And yet we have four NATO members, some of whom 
actually were in NATO back in 1999, that participated in 
protecting Kosovo from Serbia.
    Now, I would like to start with you, Dr. Gardiner. What can 
we do to bring more stability to the western Balkans, which is 
a flashpoint, has been historically and traditionally a 
flashpoint, to bring stability to the western Balkans through 
admitting Kosovo to NATO? Is that a viable solution?
    Mr. Gardiner. Thank you very much for your question, Mr. 
Chairman. And I think the situation in the Balkans today is one 
of upheaval, ongoing crisis, especially with regard to Bosnia-
Herzegovina, where we have a fundamental, I think, lack of 
national sovereignty, self-determination.
    You have in effect a sort of European elite that rules over 
Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we need to see, I think, the 
restoration of full sovereignty and self-determination. And I 
think as long as you have this E.U.-driven elite that actually 
in effect controls the Nation, you are not going to be able to 
move forward, and I think the tremendous tensions that exist 
within that region.
    With regard to Kosovo, I think great steps are being taken 
in terms of advances within the Nation. They clearly seek to be 
part of the NATO alliance. I think that with regard to Kosovo, 
there has been a lot of positive developments.
    I think we will have to assess how things move in the 
coming months and the next 2 years or so. But I have to say 
that there is growing optimism with regard to the broader 
outlook for Kosovo and for future participation in NATO. So I 
do remain optimistic on that point.
    Mr. Self. Thank you. Admiral Montgomery.
    Admiral Montgomery. I will take a slightly more aggressive 
approach and say that I think Serbia and the Republika Srpska 
are both bad actors who place Balkan stability at risk.
    I think their leaders, Vucic and Dodik, are thugs who are 
intentionally is trying to make the Republic of Bosnia largely 
a tinderbox. And Vucic has aims on eliminating Kosovar 
sovereignty.
    Our response needs to be strong. We need to support KFOR, 
the NATO force that is in Kosovo as a stabilizing force, make 
sure it is properly equipped and enabled with European and 
American support.
    But most importantly, we do need to move Kosovo along the 
path to further European integration, through both the European 
Union and NATO. And the United States needs to use its 
significant power to push countries like Spain who oppose this 
into doing the right thing and allow Kosovo to enter the 
broader European environment.
    Mr. Self. Thank you. Ambassador, I need to make one point. 
I appreciated your point about more money does not mean our 
industrial base is sufficient. And you pointed out that 
European industrial base, but our own industrial base needs 
reform and reenergized as well. Would you like to comment on 
that in my last 20 seconds?
    Ms. Smith. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for 
raising the western Balkans. Just quickly, this is a region 
that demands attention from three different corners of the 
world. NATO has to remain engaged, the European Union must stay 
engaged to continue to pursue diplomatic efforts to work toward 
peace.
    And the U.S. needs to show up and be present and engaged. 
If not, Russia and China are waiting in the wings and play a 
very active role in that neighborhood, trying to defy the folks 
in the region and divide Europe from the United States.
    Mr. Self. Thank you, my time is up. So to honor the time, I 
will have that question submitted to you in writing.
    I now recognize Mr. Keating, the ranking member.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ambassador Smith, I was curious too, and I think this is 
worth mentioning, the U.S. commitment to Ukraine just isn't one 
with NATO. As we are dealing with continued nuclear threats, 
particularly in Iran, we know the danger of those threats.
    Well, decades ago, there was a commitment made to Ukraine. 
Can you talk about the U.S. commitment to Ukraine before and 
why that commitment was so important?
    Ms. Smith. So there have been multiple-thank you, Ranking 
Member Keating-there have been multiple commitments to Ukraine 
over the years. First and foremost, the NATO alliance promised 
in 2008 that Ukraine would become a member of the alliance.
    But Ukraine has also gone through its own process of 
ridding itself of any sort of nuclear weapons program, with the 
hope that the United States and other countries would come to 
its aid and----
    Mr. Keating. How big an arsenal was that? I mean, it was 
the U.S., it was Russia. Where was Ukraine back then?
    Ms. Smith. It was significant.
    Mr. Keating. Was it the third?
    Ms. Smith. Not on the scale of Russia, but this was an 
arsenal that would have, had it remained, served as a very 
effective deterrent to Russia's aggression that we saw unfold 
in February.
    Mr. Keating. So the U.S. commitment was before even this.
    Ms. Smith. Indeed. Well before, well before.
    Mr. Keating. And that commitment said that the U.S. would 
defend aggression against Ukraine.
    Ms. Smith. Indeed.
    Mr. Keating. And so here we are. And now we have NATO 
allies-so I am curious, how many times has Article 5 been 
implemented by NATO?
    Ms. Smith. Only once, sir, and that was of course after 9/
11----
    Mr. Keating. So who benefited from that?
    Ms. Smith [continuing]. here in the United States, when 
European allies came to our----
    Mr. Keating. We all benefited, but indeed, I was in 
Afghanistan and Iraq, I saw NATO soldiers. I saw them there 
defending, and many times unpopular in their own countries, the 
U.S. defense in that regard.
    I am curious, too, if Putin is successful in Ukraine, 
Admiral, what would that mean for U.S. investment? You know, we 
are talking a lot about money here. What about the cost of 
Putin being successful in Ukraine?
    What would NATO, what would the United States, do you 
believe, have to deploy in Eastern Europe, and how expensive 
would that be?
    Admiral Montgomery. Well, if he is successful in Ukraine, I 
don't think he will be, but if he was successful in Ukraine, it 
would put tremendous pressure on the Baltic States and Poland. 
The Suwalki Gap, the area that he would like to grab there, is 
very easy.
    So for us to counter that, it would take,--we already have 
a brigade in Poland, would take a division in Poland. We have 
battalions in the Baltic States, it would take brigades in the 
Baltic States. In other words, at a time when we are 
considering reducing our footprint in Europe, we would actually 
have to significantly increase at least those rotational 
forces.
    Mr. Keating. And wouldn't you say, in your experience, 
deployment of troops is far more expensive than assets?
    Admiral Montgomery. It is, yes, sir. And it would be a lot 
more expensive than the thirty-two or thirty-four billion 
dollars' worth of weaponry we provided.
    Mr. Keating. And we talked, too, about the need for our own 
country to do better in terms of procurement and dealing with 
our assets. But wasn't in fact-we were in a period of 
modernization in our own country, among armed services as well. 
And so we were modernizing our forces.
    And many of these outdated by our perspective assets were 
so useful to Ukraine. And wasn't, Ambassador Smith, wasn't the 
investment of U.S. dollars, most of that money stayed here, is 
that true? Most of it stayed here in jobs and to modernized our 
own? So we benefited by this investment, not just Ukraine.
    Ms. Smith. Absolutely. In many cases, Europeans have been 
purchasing equipment in the United States from our defense 
industrial base to send to Ukraine, as well as they have 
purchased equipment for their own use after they have donated 
more dated equipment to Ukraine.
    So these contributions have come back to the United States. 
And America's own commitments, the money that has been 
dedicated to Ukraine, has gone into building out our own 
capabilities as we have donated others.
    Mr. Keating. And how important, from a diplomatic 
standpoint, is it to be consistent? You know, I listen, as many 
people do, to the comments of Viktor Orban in Hungary and the 
things he is saying. How discordant is the comments by someone 
like Viktor Orban in Hungary in our effort?
    Ms. Smith. Well, it is disturbing to hear comments from our 
friends in Hungary that they have very mixed views on 
supporting Ukraine. They have found some smaller ways to 
support Ukraine. But this has been a challenge across the 
alliance to maintain that unity.
    But the key to it has been U.S. leadership. And when the 
U.S. leads, it brings the allies together.
    Mr. Keating. Quickly, I have got 6 seconds left. Would you 
say a savior of NATO would say you are on your own or go it 
alone? Does that make sense?
    Ms. Smith. No, no.
    Mr. Keating. Donald Trump said those. I yield back.
    Mr. Self. Thank you. I now recognize the representative 
from Ohio, Mr. Davidson.
    Mr. Davidson. Thank you, Chairman, thank our witnesses. 
Appreciate the timely hearing today.
    It works, just not well. So if the sound guy can do 
something about that, it would be great, but. So let me start 
over.
    So thank you for the hearing. It is timely, and I would ask 
unanimous consent to submit Vice President Vance's speech in 
Munich for the record.
    Mr. Self. Accepted.
    Mr. Davidson. The administration sets the foreign policy 
for our country, and the administration has been very clear 
where the Biden administration wasn't. The Biden administration 
never would define the mission in Ukraine. They would never say 
what exactly they want to accomplish.
    The Trump administration has been clear in Ukraine by 
saying we want to help restore peace. And that is what the 
President and Secretary of State and every other tool in the 
executive branch is trying to do, is to restore peace.
    When you look at Vice President Vance's speech in Munich, 
he asked the fundamental question: what exactly are we 
defending? And not just territory, but ideas and values.
    And I think it is noteworthy, because we see people from 
western Europe claiming asylum in Hungary so they don't go to 
jail for free speech or for participating in a political party 
like AfD. Or the now-majority party in Poland, or the winner of 
the Presidential election from the conservative party there.
    So you see values that are undermining the institution. And 
the United States, by funding NATO, essentially becoming the de 
facto security force for NATO, has enabled Europe to spend 
their money on everything but defense.
    We have served as their defense, and it has been the 
umbrella to which they have extended their membership eastward. 
So we are pulling security while they are undermining the 
values that made us the West, the values that when I was in 
Berlin walking through Checkpoint Charlie in the days after 9 
November 1989 that we said we were defending. And instead, it 
is the other way.
    So you know, Ambassador Smith, I just want to be clear 
because of this ongoing discussion about Ukraine, is Ukraine a 
NATO member country?
    Ms. Smith. It is not today.
    Mr. Davidson. I didn't think so. Yes, we are certain of 
that.
    Ms. Smith. It is one of NATO's closest partners.
    Mr. Davidson. But we seem to keep treating Ukraine as a 
member of NATO. Should we make Ukraine a member of NATO?
    Ms. Smith. The alliance agreed in 2008 and stated that 
Ukraine will someday become a member. Right now there is no 
consensus across the alliance to do so.
    Mr. Davidson. Yes, there is clearly not a consensus, and I 
think for good reason. Because if we brought Ukraine into NATO, 
we would immediately be in a State of war.
    One of the things that people like to refer to is Article 
5.
    So you know, Admiral Montgomery, you said in your testimony 
that, ``The U.S. posture in Europe gives NATO's Article 5 its 
teeth.'' I worry that, you know, that kind of proves my point 
that it enables the European Union member countries to 
basically rely on America's blanket of security and under-
invest in their own.
    And I guess at some point, is your own view that Article 5 
would obligate us to fight a war, actually be immediately in a 
State of war, if a NATO member country was attacked?
    Admiral Montgomery. If there is an Article 5 violation 
determined by the alliance, then I think it is highly likely 
the United States would participate in that war. And I do think 
we are the enablers and there is no doubt, our GDP is equal to 
all of Europe.
    So it is likely that if we were all spending three point--
five percent, we are currently spending, I know the graph said 
something else, but I think we spend about 3.02 percent, 3.025 
percent, to put a specific number on it on defense.
    We don't spend that-I mean, I got to be clear here, we are 
barely clear of the numbers we want them to get to. But if we 
are spending that much, and they spend that much, we will be 
able to secure ourselves and deter Vladimir Putin from doing 
things.
    My goal is not that we fight Article 5, but we make it 
clear to Putin that should you attack a treaty ally of ours 
like the Baltic States or Poland, we will hold you accountable. 
And therefore when he sees how strong we and Europe together-
and I agree with you completely, Europe needs to carry its 
load. And Europe was apathetic for 30 years.
    But they are coming around, led by the Eastern Europeans. 
And even the President has acknowledged that the Eastern 
Europeans were spending four and now soon 5 percent, deserve 
our support. The President has spoken about the Baltics that 
way.
    Mr. Davidson. It is good and I am glad you acknowledge that 
Congress actually has the decision on whether we go to war. So 
Article 5 doesn't automatically trip it.
    You know, my time is largely expired here, but I just want 
to point out that, you know, President Eisenhower thought that 
if we were in NATO for 10 years, that we would have not 
succeeded in the mission of NATO. So I think it is worth 
questioning, as Vice President Vance did in Munich, what are we 
doing here.
    Mr. Self. Thank you, and I now recognize the representative 
from Nevada, Ms. Titus, for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Titus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    All right, just taking a little different tack. We have 
seen Russia launch information attacks on European countries 
that are in sensitive political contexts, and we have seen it 
in Georgia, we have seen it in Moldova. It has also extended to 
NATO countries like Romania in their recent election.
    And all these attacks are aimed at causing confusion. They 
deepen political and social divisions. They destabilize 
societies. And the ultimate goal is weakening NATO, I believe.
    So Ambassador Smith, I will start with you. Can you tell us 
how NATO is working with allies, partners, and private sector 
actors to kind of identify, expose, and address and combat this 
foreign disinformation that is coming from Russia?
    Ms. Smith. Thank you very much, Representative, for raising 
Russia's hybrid tactics. They use a variety of tools to try and 
divide societies from within and divide Europeans from each 
other and Europe from the United States. They fly into NATO 
airspace, they use disinformation campaigns.
    There have been incidents of sabotage where suddenly we 
have seen arson attacks of warehouses full of weapons destined 
for Ukraine. We have seen undersea cables cut.
    So this is a standard playbook on the part of the Russians. 
NATO has increasingly turned to improving and strengthening its 
toolkit. We have better cyber security tools. We now exercise 
and train to test where we would hit that Article 5 threshold 
under some potential hybrid attack from Russia.
    We have better surveillance in the Nordic Baltic space, 
looking for incidents where they are about to clip another 
undersea cable. So NATO is the place where we can work hand in 
glove with our European allies to get a stronger and better 
toolkit to deal with Russian gray zone tactics.
    Ms. Titus. I am glad to hear we are doing those things, but 
at the same time, we are eliminating the Global Engagement 
Center. Can you address how that might work to our 
disadvantaged?
    Ms. Smith. Well, that is unfortunate, because right now in 
the U.S. Government, it seems that this administration is not 
placing any importance on those types of efforts to combat 
disinformation stemming from not only Russia, but Iran, from 
China. These countries work together to share messages to learn 
from one another in how they promote these pieces of 
disinformation.
    And the U.S. traditionally has been a leader in helping 
allies understand how to counter those efforts. But right now, 
with the elimination of the Global Engagement Center, we will 
likely not be the beating heart of those efforts going forward.
    Ms. Titus. I agree with you.
    Admiral Montgomery. Can I add one thing on that, ma'am? The 
Trump administration didn't get rid of the Global Engagement 
Center, Congress did. You allowed it to-its authorities to 
expire last December. And that was, I agree it is a mistake.
    But what the Trump administration has done has gotten rid 
of the Voice of America and most of the other distributions 
systems, which is a mistake. That tells the truth about America 
for people to hear. When I lived in the Soviet Union in the 
early 1980's, Voice of America and Radio Free Europe were what 
you could hear there to hear the American story.
    So I am disappointed in the Trump administration for that. 
But I don't blame them for the Global Engagement Center. You in 
Congress allowed that to expire in December of last year.
    Ms. Titus. I didn't. Don't say I did. But, yes, some did.
    Admiral Montgomery. You.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Titus. Okay. Well, you have done a few things too. Let 
me ask you this, shifting over here to you, Admiral. Excuse me 
for saying General.
    We are fixing to go to the NATO summit in The Hague. Now, 
we have got two allies in a part of the world that needs more 
and more attention, the eastern Mediterranean. So many things 
are happening in that area, from Israel, Syria, Lebanon, you 
name it.
    We got two NATO allies there. We got Greece and Turkiye. 
Greece is a friend, Turkiye is not such a reliable ally. What 
is the message we should be sending to Turkiye when we go to 
The Hague next week?
    Admiral Montgomery. I agree with you, and I am glad we are 
selling Greece F-35s. I think we should continue to sell Greece 
significant weaponry as necessary so they can do their job 
securing the Aegean and southeastern Europe.
    Turkiye needs to get a strong message from us that they 
should not be eligible for the F-35 until they completely give 
up the S-400. I am very concerned that the administration is 
going to, you know, remove one little part, direct the movement 
of one little part from the S-400, and then say Turkiye can buy 
F-35s. That is a mistake.
    Turkiye needs to be held accountable for its bad 
decisionmaking on the S-400's and on its support for Hamas. And 
I think that is strong message that needs to be delivered by 
the administration in The Hague and elsewhere.
    Ms. Titus. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Self. I now recognize the representative Mrs. Kim.
    Mrs. Kim. Good morning, everyone. Thank you, Chairman Self 
and Ranking Member Keating, for holding today's hearing. And 
thank you for joining us today.
    I want to ask my first question to Mr. Montgomery. You 
know, NATO's ability to deter threats from Russia depends on a 
robust and responsive defense industrial base.
    However, Europe's defense industries face critical 
vulnerabilities in supply chains, production capacity, and 
procurement strategies, as highlighted by Russia's war against 
Ukraine. And with some NATO allies still falling short of the 
2-percent GDP defense spending pledge, that also limits 
investments in modernization and in readiness.
    So can you talk about the specific steps that NATO allies 
can take to address any vulnerabilities in Europe's defense 
industrial base, especially when it comes to critical munitions 
and advanced systems production?
    Admiral Montgomery. Thank you for bringing that up. And you 
are absolutely right. You know, as we look, as we sourced 
Ukraine over the last 3 years, 95 percent of what U.S. provided 
was U.S. equipment. But more than 50 percent of the western 
equipment provided by the Europeans was U.S. equipment. They do 
not have a effective defense industrial base.
    I also don't believe they can properly conceive of what is 
needed. It took you, Congress, 40 years to build the current 
defense industrial base and trillions and trillions of dollars 
in direct investment. And the Europeans have not made those 
commitments.
    And when I hear President Macron talk about a European 
solution to this, the amount of money he discusses is way too 
low. So the truth is the Europeans are going to need to rely on 
us over the next decade to rearm themselves, and they are also 
going to need to build their own defense industrial base.
    Mrs. Kim. Specifically, I need to ask how the United States 
can help European allies in overcoming those shortfalls. And at 
the same time, we need to ensure the interoperability within 
our alliance.
    Admiral Montgomery. I think we should take the Rheinmetall, 
that example we have right now with Rheinmetall, the German 
artillery firm, which is partnering with the United States, 
with U.S. firms so that they can scale their production 
properly.
    So, what I think is joint ventures between U.S. companies 
and European companies that build both in the United States, 
for jobs in the United States, but also in Europe, for jobs in 
Europe, with that European money. That is the most logical, 
cost-efficient way. It is not what the French are proposing, 
but I think long-term that is how NATO needs to settle out.
    Mrs. Kim. Next I want to talk about Russia and China.
    You know, in your testimony, Mr. Montgomery, you made it 
very clear that Russia under Putin is the, in quotes, ``single 
greatest threat to peace and democracy in Europe.''
    You also noted the role that China has played in helping 
sustain Russia's war in Ukraine, and providing dual-use 
technologies and economic support.
    So, we know China is bolstering Russia's defense industrial 
base with microelectronics, telecommunications equipment, and 
drone technology.
    So, in that context, how should NATO adapt its deterrence 
and defense strategies so they can address the combined 
military and technological threats posed by a Russia-China 
partnership?
    Admiral Montgomery. And you are exactly right, what I am 
saying there is that Ukraine is actually fighting four 
countries right now: Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran. And 
I would say most of us think North Korea and Iran are the next 
biggest problems. They are not. It is China.
    China is backstopping Russia's economy. They have increased 
their imports and exports more than 30 percent. As you said, 
they provided the microelectronics. They are supporting the Kh-
101, cruise missiles, and ballistic missiles. They are striking 
Ukraine every night.
    We absolutely have to hold China accountable for its 
support to, to Ukraine.
    Mrs. Kim. Is there specific capabilities or partnerships 
that NATO should prioritize to counter those threats?
    Admiral Montgomery. Yes. So, I do believe it is NATO's role 
in an Asia-Pacific context will be very economic in nature. So 
that what we need to do is start working together on how we 
sanction and export control China properly. And we need to get 
the Europeans more engaged in that, and committed as we are.
    Mrs. Kim. I have one more question regarding the NATO and 
Western Balkans. The Western Balkans is a critical region for 
NATO staffers to promote stability and counter external 
influence. Russia has intensified its efforts to undermine NATO 
in EU integration in countries like Serbia, using 
disinformation, economic leverage, and political interference.
    So, what specific strategy should NATO employ to counter 
Russian influence in the Western Baltics--or Balkans? And 
particularly in Serbia, as I mentioned, and where the, you 
know, favorable perceptions of Russia are growing, especially, 
like I said, in Serbia?
    Admiral Montgomery. I think you are exactly right. 
President Putin has supported both Vucic in Serbia and Dodik in 
Republika Srpska. We need to fully support Kosovo in its 
efforts to enter the European Union and NATO.
    But more importantly, we need to ensure the stabilizing 
force, NATO's KFOR force in Kosovo is properly manned and 
equipped to do a what it has to to provide the warning that is 
necessary so that Washington can hold Serbia accountable for 
threats to Kosovo.
    Mrs. Kim. Thank you very much. My time is up. I yield back.
    Mr. Self. I now recognize the representative from 
California, Mr. Costa.
    Mr. Costa. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    For the purpose of my 5 minutes I want to focus on NATO and 
Ukraine. But let me first remind ourselves of a bit of history.
    When Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24th, 2022, there 
was strong bipartisan support that this was about good versus 
evil. Very clear, good versus evil.
    Let me quote from a speech that President Ronald Reagan 
gave in 1983.
    ``To ignore the facts of history and aggressive impulses of 
an evil empire is simply to call the arms race a giant 
misunderstanding, and thereby remove yourself from the struggle 
between right and wrong, and good and evil.'' President Ronald 
Reagan in 1983.
    I submit to you, ladies and gentlemen, and members of the 
subcommittee, that this is still about good versus evil, bottom 
line. Okay?
    So, when we look at NATO, and when we look at the United 
States post-World War II, do we not witness that the United 
States and whoever has been President of the United States, 
World War II to today, has been viewed as the indispensable 
leader of the free world, Ambassador Smith?
    Ms. Smith. Absolutely, Representative. The U.S. has led the 
alliance since it was created 76 years ago. It has provided not 
only----
    Mr. Costa. The indispensable leader of the free world.
    Ms. Smith. Yes. Absolutely.
    Mr. Costa. Dr. Gardiner, would you agree?
    Mr. Gardiner. One hundred percent the United States is the 
indispensable leader of the free world, and remains so today.
    Mr. Costa. Rear Admiral Montgomery, what would you say?
    Admiral Montgomery. I would say absolutely. And we should 
keep the command of SACEUR as part of that indispensable 
leadership.
    Mr. Costa. So, we are part of a seminal moment in world 
history today as we look at what has taken place. Because Putin 
has been very clear, although the Soviet Union has imploded he 
still has visions and dreams of restoring the Russian Empire, 
does he not? Would all three of you agree?
    Mr. Gardiner. Yes.
    Admiral Montgomery. Yes.
    Ms. Smith. Yes.
    Mr. Costa. I mean he has been very clear in all of his 
speeches here.
    So, Ambassador Smith, yes or no, do you believe a strong 
NATO alliance is important to counter the rising and aggressive 
forces of China?
    Ms. Smith. Yes, I do. Not to suggest that the NATO alliance 
is going to operate in the Indo-Pacific, but its deepening 
partnerships with Japan, South Korea----
    Mr. Costa. China is very carefully watching what we are 
doing in Ukraine----
    Ms. Smith. Indeed.
    Mr. Costa [continuing]. would all three of you agree?
    Ms. Smith. Yes.
    Mr. Gardiner. Yes.
    Admiral Montgomery. Yes.
    Mr. Gardiner. Yes.
    Mr. Costa. Whether or not we are going to maintain our 
commitment to our allies and to a democratic and free 
Ukraine,----
    Ms. Smith. Yes.
    Mr. Costa [continuing]. the world is watching, would you 
not say?
    Ms. Smith. Absolutely.
    Mr. Costa. So, therefore, this is a seminal moment in 
American and world history with our NATO allies?
    Ms. Smith. Yes.
    Mr. Gardiner. Yes.
    Mr. Costa. Admiral Montgomery, the probable outcome of the 
support, and you have been there, I know, recently, in Ukraine, 
the F-16s and other support to ensure that--and, of course, we 
are all amazed, but we shouldn't be because, once again, I 
remember all the intelligence briefings we received prior to 
Russia's invasion of over-expectations and under-expectations.
    But Ukraine, the Ukrainian brave people are the MacGyvers 
of this, of this new type of warfare. Would you not agree, 
Admiral Montgomery?
    Admiral Montgomery. I do. And their use of the F-16 has 
been exceptional in the few months they have been operating.
    Mr. Costa. And what should we be doing to ensure that those 
aircraft are fully operational and able to achieve their 
capability?
    Admiral Montgomery. We gave them the F-16s, the European 
countries did, without what is called lifecycle maintenance: 
the consumables, the equipment, the training, and the 
maintenance stuff they need. We need to fully provide the 
lifecycle maintenance and we need to provide the right weapons 
systems to be used as a counter-drone.
    Mr. Costa. And our allies, the Danish and the Netherlands 
have provided the aircraft. We are helping to try to train the 
pilots. But we need to do more; is that not correct?
    Admiral Montgomery. That is correct. We need to do the 
supply chain, the logistics. And we can just sell it to them. 
We don't need to give it to them. We can sell it to them, but 
we have to provide that lifecycle maintenance.
    And, sir, I have to emphasize, we need to give them the 
counter-drone rocket systems, the APKWS that you need to fire 
from those systems.
    Mr. Costa. You wrote a column about this last week. There 
are varied types of systems that the aircraft are lacking that 
we should provide. What are they?
    Admiral Montgomery. The rocket system I just mentioned, and 
an active jamming system.
    Mr. Costa. The jamming system is very important to the 
protection of these systems; that is right, isn't it?
    Admiral Montgomery. That is right. We want to make sure 
that the pilots who are trained in the United States and the 
aircraft, of which they have limited numbers right now, as you 
said, the Netherlands, and Denmark, and eventually Norway, 
survive. They are fighting them exceptionally but they could 
use more support from us.
    Mr. Costa. Let me finally indicate, when Secretary Rubio 
testified before the committee here about a week ago they 
talked about maximum, maximum pressure on Iran to prevent them 
from obtaining nuclear weapons. And by the way, I agree with 
that.
    And I understand the Secretary, what are we doing to put 
maximum, maximum pressure on Russia to ensure that they 
understand that we mean business and we are going to stay with 
our allies? What should we be doing?
    Admiral Montgomery. We should be sanctioning the people who 
are helping the shadow fleet evade sanctions. In other words, 
Chinese, Indian, Turkish companies that are taking the fossil 
fuels that are shipped from Russia in their shadow fleet and 
allow them to circumvent the existing sanctions that neither 
the Biden administration nor the Trump administration has 
properly enforced sanctions to allow that to happen.
    Mr. Costa. And if we put maximum, maximum pressure, maybe 
Russia will come to the realization that we mean business?
    Admiral Montgomery. Potentially. He is Vladimir Putin, so I 
won't say yes.
    Mr. Costa. Thank you.
    I have used my time, Mr. Chairman. And I will submit 
further questions for the record.
    Mr. Self. And I recognize the representative from Florida, 
Ms. Luna.
    Mrs. Luna. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    First and foremost, I am going to have to disagree with my 
colleagues' sentiment as Ukraine as our ally. Ukraine is not a 
member of NATO.
    But aside from that, Zelenskyy hasn't held actual elections 
since the war started. So, I don't know what free and fair 
democracy does that.
    But aside from that, if we are looking at the U.S. total 
spending in NATO, it is 3.3 percent of the defense budget, 
which is a lot of money. My question, and I would like to 
actually point out we just saw two senators took a vlogging 
trip to Ukraine yesterday. It was Senator Blumenthal and 
Graham. I guess it was over the weekend.
    But to put simply, their sanctions bill with Graham is 
basically another D.C. classic. Their Sanctioning Russia Act of 
2025, there is a 500 percent tariff, and banking bans at 
Moscow. But where is the accountability for how billions in 
Part A were spent?
    Biden's admin shoveled millions and millions of dollars 
into Ukraine with zero oversight, no audits, no results. Now 
this bill demands 55 million for monitoring, while Section 17 
slaps tariffs on other countries buying Russian oil, which 
China will bypass through third parties.
    Trump's America First polities does not write blank checks, 
it demands verifiable wins. And if Europe is not going to step 
up militarily, why should U.S. taxpayers fund their security 
theater? Sanctions without enforced negotiations are just 
performative politics.
    You know, I was just with the House Democracy Partnership 
Institute. We were actually in Belgium. We met with the 
European Union. We met with the NATO countries. And what I can 
tell you is you have these countries who are not surrounding 
the Ukraine, and they are advocating for war.
    But you have countries like Romania, Russia--countries like 
Moldova that want peace, and thoroughly back President Trump's 
agenda.
    The reason that I bring that up is because I do believe if 
we continue funding NATO in our current capacity we are simply 
making excuses, not forcing them to take a realistic approach 
at peace negotiations.
    My first question would be to Mr. Montgomery. If you could 
just go back and elaborate really quickly on what you had 
stated in regards to oil?
    Admiral Montgomery. Yes. Right now the Russians are able to 
shift their fossil fuels and avoid existing sanctions, which 
both the Biden and Trump administration have in place, by 
finding third parties. They ship them on illegal shadow ships. 
And third parties, and you mentioned China, India, Turkiye, are 
receiving that.
    The way you normally stop that is you then sanction the 
companies receiving that, the ports receiving it, and the banks 
involved in the, in the procurement. And then those companies 
back off.
    And historically we have seen that happen with Iran, with 
North Korea, with others.
    So, all we have to do is enforce the existing laws, the 
existing sanctions, and we will, we will take away Russia's, 
what is funding Russia's military operations.
    Mrs. Luna. Instead of performative politics; correct?
    I mean, I agree with you.
    Admiral Montgomery. Right. Oh, instead of the--Yes.
    Mrs. Luna. Yes.
    Admiral Montgomery. I think we can do that regardless of 
the sanction bill going on in the Senate.
    Mrs. Luna. Cool.
    And aside from that, just with that same perspective, do 
you think that it is a good idea for members of our Senate, 
Members of Congress to go outside of the policy being set forth 
by the White House and the Secretary of State in regards to 
policy with Russia that we are seeing currently?
    Admiral Montgomery. Well, I certainly feel it is fair for 
senators and Congressmen to go on whatever congressional 
delegations they want. I have supported thousands in my career. 
And I, and I have no opinion on when Republicans, you know, 
criticize Democrat administrations or Democrat representative 
criticize Republican administrations.
    And to my military knowledge, that appears to be the normal 
way of doing business.
    Mrs. Luna. Do you think, though, that it is dangerous to 
have people that are advocating for a policy that is pro war 
when they are first and foremost not the ones on the front 
line, and also to receive massive contracts from defense 
contractors--or not massive contracts but massive donations and 
support from defense contractors?
    Admiral Montgomery. I know Senator Graham, and I believe he 
honestly believes----
    Mrs. Luna. This isn't directed at Senator Graham, sir.
    Admiral Montgomery. Oh.
    Mrs. Luna. That seems to be a problem not just in the House 
but also in the Senate, not specific to one member, both 
Democrat and Republican.
    Admiral Montgomery. I, as a retired military officer, I 
would never hold a politician accountable for, you know, 
expressing his or her views.
    Mrs. Luna. Sorry?
    Admiral Montgomery. A politician should be allowed, able to 
express his or her views.
    Mrs. Luna. Oh, no, that, I mean, I understand that, sir. I 
was just asking simply.
    I thank you for your time. And, obviously, not trying to 
attack you on this. I appreciate you being here today.
    Thank you, Chairman.
    Mr. Self. I now recognize the representative from Rhode 
Island, Mr. Amo.
    Mr. Amo. Thank you.
    Thank you to our witnesses for being here.
    We know that the United States' leadership in NATO is 
essential to our own national security. We must support our 
European allies as they take meaningful steps to ensure and 
increase their own defense spending and capabilities. And we 
cannot pull away and isolate ourselves as the current 
Republican administration seeks.
    Maintaining a strong leadership role in NATO means standing 
up to the biggest threat facing our European allies: Russia's 
aggression. But Republicans on this very committee remain 
silent as Donald Trump scolds our NATO allies, parrots Putin's 
talking points, and retreats on the global stage.
    As Russian attacks are stepping up, Trump is stepping back. 
He is not lifting a finger to support Ukraine in their fight 
for freedom, sovereignty and security. And Russian aggression 
toward our allies can be seen in their sabotage of essential 
underwater technologies and infrastructure.
    At least 11 undersea cables in the Baltic Sea have been 
damaged since October 2023, including cables disrupting 
essential energy and internet services to our allies in Sweden 
and Finland.
    Ambassador Smith, could you explain how NATO is countering 
attacks against undersea infrastructure?
    And how can the U.S. support this work and protect our own 
underwater infrastructure from this sabotage?
    Ms. Smith. Thank you, Representative, for raising this 
particular issue.
    The clippings of or cutting of undersea cables is 
increasingly a topic of conversation across the NATO alliance. 
And allies have increased their surveillance, particularly in 
the Baltic Sea. They are sharing more intelligence, sharing 
best practices, and putting together a toolkit that will enable 
the alliance to fortify itself to these types of hybrid 
tactics.
    This is an area where U.S. leadership is indispensable. And 
if we continue to work through this particular issue through 
NATO, we will see a stronger collective alliance response to 
these types of incidents.
    Mr. Amo. Thank you.
    And, you know, this is an example where our adversaries, 
especially China, are watching NATO's response to Russia's 
aggression. Our response, our collaboration, our refusal to 
retreat from this task is a signal that I think is incredibly 
important.
    And, you know, this is, you know, emblematic of the 
response that we need to have in--to the increased coordination 
and cooperation between Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran as 
they, you know, of course form a significant threat against 
Ukraine and NATO.
    And, so, China's continued investments in critical 
infrastructure and telecommunications systems in particular 
across Europe raises alarms about this coordination.
    And I would love for you to share a little bit more about 
how NATO can and should counter the combined threat of 
coordination between those actors, Russia, China, North Korea, 
and Iran, especially with the investments from China in 
critical telecommunications systems.
    Ms. Smith. Well, this is actually a remarkable bipartisan 
story. And I guess there are not as many of those these days as 
we would all wish.
    But in the Trump administration's first term they pushed 
the alliance to conduct a China review that put China on the 
map and got allies talking about what China is doing in and 
around Europe.
    The Biden administration grabbed the baton. We were able to 
get China into NATO's strategic concept, deepen our 
partnerships in the Indo-Pacific. And now handed the baton back 
to the second Trump administration.
    My hope is that this administration will continue to run 
down this path to heighten allies' awareness of what China is 
doing in Europe, whether it is economic coercion, 
disinformation, or fueling and helping supply Russia's war in 
Ukraine.
    Mr. Amo. And I think it is so important that you 
highlighted the fact that the sort of current context of the 
Trump administration and its questioning of the NATO 
relationship doesn't have to be. And they have already proven 
that through the types of collaboration and commitment that we 
saw prior, carrying on from an administration whether or not it 
is a Democratic or Republican administration. These are about 
values, American values that we share.
    And the last thing I will touch on, and I may not be able 
to get your answer but I will try to do so in writing. The 
point I want to make here is that it is really essential that 
NATO maintain a unified position against the threat of Russia 
and their new partners.
    I have questions about Turkiye in this moment. And, you 
know, if you could, briefly, how should the United States and 
NATO approach member nations who are maintaining those ties 
with Russia that imperil the strength of the NATO relationship?
    Ms. Smith. Well, Turkiye is an important but complicated 
ally in the alliance. The U.S. needs to work with Turkiye where 
our interests coincide.
    But in cases where we are at odds, we have to approach them 
with honesty and work through our differences, whether it is 
inside the alliance or in our bilateral relationship, or in 
their relationship with Russia.
    I will say on Ukraine in that first year in 2022, Turkiye 
played an important role in trying to bring the parties 
together. We have recently seen renewed efforts to do so, 
welcoming both Ukrainians and Russians back to Turkiye to, 
hopefully, negotiate.
    Mr. Amo. Hopefully, that is a trend line that we see 
continue.
    With that, I yield back.
    Mr. Self. And I recognize the representative from Texas, 
Ms. Johnson.
    Ms. Johnson. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
    And to our panelists, thank you so much for being here 
today.
    I want to echo my colleagues and our witnesses' comments 
that NATO's very existence has averted world wars and made the 
United States safer. Let me be clear, it is not a waste of 
resources when we come together as allies to defend one 
another, as implied by some other members of this committee.
    The security and prosperity that we have enjoyed since 
world wars is no accident. Out of the fog of war, the United 
States helped found this 80-year-old alliance that guaranteed 
under Article 5 that should any NATO nation come under attack, 
the other members will consider it as an attack against members 
all, and will take all actions it deems necessary to assist.
    Article 5 has been invoked once in NATO's history, and that 
was on September 12th, 2001, 1 day after Al Qaeda killed almost 
3,000 people here in our homeland.
    In the following years our NATO allies came to our aid and 
1,000 troops died in combat alongside Americans.
    But now we have a President who questions that same 
security assistance we relied on to keep our own nation safe. 
Just a few weeks ago he said in the Oval Office, ``You know, 
the biggest problem I have with NATO, if the United States is 
in trouble and we call them, do you think they are going to 
come and protect us? They're supposed to. I'm not so sure.''
    I find these comments incredibly reckless, and 
irresponsible, and dangerous to our national security in light 
of the one time when NATO's been activated, it was in our 
defense.
    Ambassador Smith, how does this suggestion that NATO allies 
will not defend each other impact our adversaries' perception 
of credible deterrence?
    And does this undermine our own security?
    Ms. Smith. Well, thank you, Representative.
    When the war in Ukraine started, I think both President Xi 
in China and President Putin in Russia made an assumption, and 
that was that the NATO allies would grow weary, that they would 
grow impatient, that they would grow distracted, and they 
wouldn't be able to maintain focus on Ukraine.
    But we have maintained focus on Ukraine. We remain united. 
I am worried that won't continue to be the case. I want to see 
continued U.S. leadership, which is critical to alliance unity.
    And while the Europeans are increasing their defense 
budgets, it makes perfect sense to remain committed to this 
alliance. It serves our interests in addition to the interests 
of our allies.
    So, I firmly believe that the U.S. should maintain its 
commitment to this alliance, and that doing so will send a very 
strong signal not just to Moscow but to China, Iran, North 
Korea, and other countries around the world.
    Ms. Johnson. And it seems to me like the administration is 
sort of doing the hokey-pokey: we are in 1 day, we are out 1 
day, we are in 1 day, and we are turning it all about. And that 
is not the way to have sustained, reliable, persuasive foreign 
policy in my opinion.
    Do you agree?
    Ms. Smith. Yes, Representative.
    I will tell you that the day that the Trump administration 
suddenly, without consultation with any of our allies, flipped 
off and turned off intelligence sharing to Ukraine, and all 
military assistance--it was eventually turned back on--but that 
day sent a chill through our European allies, our friends in 
Canada, who were worried that this now signals a new era where 
at any moment the U.S. can have a sudden shift without any 
close coordination or cooperation with them.
    Ms. Johnson. The President just sent over a rescission bill 
that will defund, remove funding, critical funding for the U.N. 
I am curious as to how this panel feels about the U.S. 
decreasing its financial commitment to the U.N. and what that 
would do to our national security interests.
    Yes?
    Mr. Gardiner. Thank you very much for the question.
    I fully support efforts to reduce funding for the United 
Nations because the United Nations is riddled with corruption 
and inefficiency, and frequently acts against U.S. national 
interests.
    And I think that the Trump presidency is pushing for 
greater accountability from the United Nations. And that is 
absolutely, absolutely right.
    And so----
    Mr. Johnson. Admiral, how do you feel about that?
    Admiral Montgomery. I am uncomfortable with the rescission 
plan with the United Nations, but more, more so with the 
reduction in USAID funding for, particularly I study the cyber 
capability capacity building that we have been doing in Eastern 
Europe and in the Balkans, and I think the cutting of that 
funding, the reduction in that funding will make us, it will 
make it much more difficult for U.S. forces to operate, to move 
in and through these countries as we like to do with our 
forces.
    So, we have to be very careful with these reductions and 
our overseas assistance. If they have a legitimate national 
security value, they should be maintained. And when you 
eliminate 100 percent of everything, I tend to think you really 
didn't do a legitimate review.
    Ms. Johnson. I couldn't agree with you more.
    Thank you all so much for your testimony. I am out of time 
and I yield back.
    Mr. Self. With that, I recognize the representative from 
Illinois, Mr. Schneider.
    Mr. Schneider. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for 
allowing me to join this hearing. And to our witnesses, I 
appreciate your insights.
    You all used similar imagery. You talked about NATO as the 
beating heart, the bedrock, the bulwark. That was very 
consistent.
    Ambassador Smith, you also spoke about a trust deficit. And 
I will paraphrase, but many governments are worried that the 
U.S. commitment to NATO is conditional or transactional.
    Are European allies right to worry about the U.S., 
Ambassador Smith?
    Ms. Smith. Well, I will tell you, having just got back from 
Spain a couple of days ago, and having the opportunity to meet 
with a number of allies across Europe, there is a real concern 
that the United States right now is unpredictable, and that its 
position both on Ukraine and on the NATO alliance is entirely 
unclear. They do not like that unpredictability and worry about 
whether or not U.S. leadership will continue.
    Mr. Schneider. I am going to ask for my time back because I 
want to move on to other things.
    But, Dr. Gardiner, right to worry?
    Mr. Gardiner. If I could respond to that, actually. I have 
met with dozens and dozens of European here at Washington over 
the past few months, and also been to several European capitals 
recently. And the message from our European friends is that 
President Trump is actually applying the right kind of pressure 
on NATO to increase defense spending to do more.
    He is really shaking up the trans-Atlantic alliance in a 
very positive way. And I have not, I have not heard the 
negativity that you are----
    Mr. Schneider. And I have got it covered, so I appreciate 
that.
    Mr. Gardiner [continuing]. that you are referring to.
    Mr. Schneider. Rear Admiral Montgomery?
    Admiral Montgomery. So, I don't think this has been a wise 
maneuver, just like I didn't think it was wise to pull out of 
Afghanistan without informing our NATO allies. I think we have 
about a 5-year streak right now of being too unpredictable and 
too unfocused on the actual rapacious authoritarians staring us 
in the face.
    Mr. Schneider. And if I can pick up from there.
    I remember the images from Bucha: the bodies in the street, 
the hands tied behind backs, the faces of ordinary people, men, 
women, and children massacred in cold blood by Russian troops. 
Russia's goal was not just to seize territory, it was to 
extinguish a nation, to remind those still under its power that 
resistance is fatal, and to warn those who escape that their 
safety was not assured.
    There was no ambiguity. It was terror. It was annihilation. 
And it was specifically staged for the world to see. And the 
world responded.
    NATO reinforced its eastern flank. Our allies rose to the 
moment. And for the time, I would argue, so did we.
    But I think at this moment the United States is drifting. 
Not drifting, we are actually being led away, led away from 
principle toward paralysis. The President has remained silent 
as Russia renews its campaign of drone strikes against 
civilians. He has not condemned the atrocities. He has not 
mobilized support. He has not led.
    And many in Congress, including some of my colleagues who 
are on the other side today, have followed that example. They 
speak, of Ukraine's cause but shrink from its defense. They 
block aid, delay action, and offer platitudes in place of 
policy. Some have mistaken political convenience for principle, 
or they have lost both.
    We are once again at a point of strategic and moral 
clarity. Ukraine is not asking for our troops, it is asking for 
our resolve. NATO is not demanding escalation, it is asking for 
consistency.
    Each day that the United States hesitates, NATO's 
deterrence is tested, and not only in Kyiv, but in Warsaw, 
Tallinn, and beyond. And if Ukraine chooses to pursue NATO 
membership, as we promised in 2008, as Ukraine as part of an 
agreement to relinquish its nuclear weapons, as part of the 
family of nations, there has to be a clear and credible path 
forward for Ukraine, who has made sacrifice, who has bravely 
fought the Russians.
    We need to honor our commitments and admit that door to 
NATO remains open to free nations, not just Ukraine but free 
nations who meet its obligations and share its values.
    So, my question, I will turn to Ambassador Smith again. 
Bucha was a moment of clarity. The President has been silent on 
Bucha, been silent on the new campaign, Russia's new campaign 
of drone strikes against civilians. He told Zelenskyy that he 
had no cards to play in the Oval Office. I can only imagine 
what Zelenskyy was thinking, knowing that there were plenty of 
cards left to play, as we saw this weekend.
    What does the President's silence communicate to our NATO 
allies, and to Moscow in particular?
    Ms. Smith. It has led to uncertainty about whether or not 
the U.S. is clear-eyed here about who is the aggressor and who 
is the victim. The U.S. needs to State repeatedly that Russia 
is the aggressor and Ukraine is the victim.
    We must apply more pressure on Russia to move toward peace, 
but we also have to ensure that the Ukrainians don't have any 
limits on the size of their forces or whether or not they can 
build a future force so that this doesn't happen again.
    Mr. Schneider. Thank you. I am over time.
    As has been noted here, NATO came to the United States' aid 
under Article 5 after we were attacked on September 11th. NATO 
has led the way in ensuring that Ukraine is able to defend 
itself against aggression from Russia. There is no dispute. 
There should be no question. We have to be clear that that was 
the case.
    I appreciate the witnesses' testimony. And I yield back.
    Mr. Self. I now recognize the representative from Delaware, 
Mr. McBride.
    Mr. Keating. Mr. Chairman, I request 30 seconds to make a 
unanimous statement.
    Mr. Self. You are recognized, Mr. Keating.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Last hearing you referred to Representative McBride as 
representative, and I can't fathom how you just can't continue 
to do that. In any case, it is obvious to me that 
Representative McBride wants to focus on the job she was 
elected to do.
    So, going forward, every time you do this she will 
demonstrate who she is, and you will demonstrate who you are.
    With that, let us focus back on the hearing.
    Ms. McBride. Thank you, Ranking Member Keating. I am indeed 
here to talk about strengthening our national security by 
bolstering our NATO alliance because democracy is under attack, 
both in the U.S. and around the world.
    NATO, grounded in shared cultural values with our trans-
Atlantic allies, plays a vital role in defending democracy and 
sustaining the U.S.-led democratic world order that protects 
our freedoms every single day.
    NATO has been a defender of democracy both at home and in 
Europe for over 75 years, fostering both one of the longest 
periods of peace between great powers in human history, and the 
greatest expansion of freedom and individual liberty ever.
    On the global stage, this administration is attacking our 
NATO allies Denmark and Canada, canceling foreign aid without 
notice, and defending Putin's illegal war in Ukraine.
    Most dangerously, this administration is undermining 
Article 5 in explicit ways. But the threat to NATO and to the 
security it has fostered is even more insidious than just that.
    Here at home we are seeing a democratic backsliding and 
dangerous illiberalism take hold. When due process is infringed 
upon and the First Amendment is trampled upon we are not simply 
violating domestic norms and constitutional freedoms, we are 
communicating to Vladimir Putin that we no longer cherish the 
shared values that underpin our commitment to NATO.
    We communicate we aren't willing to defend democracy here 
at home and, in so doing, that we are not willing to defend it 
overseas, that democracy and individual liberty are not 
principles that we will fight for.
    And this is part and parcel of a broader global project 
aimed at dismantling democratic institutions and shifting 
toward totalitarianism.
    NATO is and has been a crucial alliance for our shared 
national security goals and our shared values. And I intend to 
work with this committee, with serious members on this 
committee to ensure that we remain a leader and supporter of 
NATO's mission.
    So, my question for you, Ambassador Smith, as someone who 
has represented the U.S. in Europe, I am curious what long-term 
strategic consequences could arise if the perception takes hold 
globally that the United States is retreating from our 
democratic values, and how could that impact NATO's unity, its 
mission, and its effectiveness?
    Ms. Smith. Well, thank you very much, Representative, for 
that question.
    Look, the NATO alliance is rooted fundamentally in our 
shared values. And our shared values starts and ends with a 
commitment to democracy, to the rule of law, to human rights, 
et cetera.
    And, so, if we have a situation where certain allies are 
starting to question America's fundamental commitment to those 
democratic values, the foundation of the alliance simply won't 
hold. So, the United States needs to not only continue to 
ensure that it leads this alliance as it has done for now 76 
years, but it has to be the beacon on those democratic values. 
Without it, the NATO project, again, simply doesn't work.
    And it would be ultimately a win for China, for Russia, for 
Iran, for North Korea, and others to see the collapse of those 
shared values. So, the U.S. has a key role in maintaining them.
    Ms. McBride. So, I want to build off of that point, 
Ambassador, specifically around the message it sends to China 
and Russia.
    You know, I touched on in my opening comments how a 
receding of democratic norms, and values, and rights here in 
the United States could communicate to Vladimir Putin that we 
are less committed to the values that underpin NATO. So, I 
would love to hear your perspective on how that illiberalism 
here, how that democratic backsliding here could potentially 
embolden Vladimir Putin?
    Ms. Smith. Well, we can't do anything, Representative, to 
signal to Moscow that we are backsliding on any of those core 
values. And we have to ensure that America's commitment to the 
alliance is ironclad.
    It is there, NATO is there to defend our shared values. We 
do not want to give Russia any impression that we are backing 
away from that commitment.
    Ms. McBride. And then, finally, you know, in terms of 
NATO's unity, I would love to hear a little bit more from you, 
Ambassador, about the public attacks by U.S. leaders on 
longstanding NATO allies, and how that is impacting or 
potentially could impact cohesion and mutual trust within NATO?
    Ms. Smith. Well, look, we have been in this alliance for 76 
years, and we argue all the time. I am here to tell you, as the 
U.S. Ambassador I spent each and every week having debates, 
fierce debates, sometimes shouting debates with our closest 
allies. That is the way it goes in the alliance. It is like a 
family. Everyone feels comfortable arguing.
    But what you don't want to do is let those fierce debates 
internally boil over and give leaders around the world, 
autocrats, the feeling that NATO unity is cracking. You have to 
take those arguments head on but work toward unity.
    And what I want to see is this administration re-assuming 
and taking on that leadership role in the alliance, calling out 
Russia for its aggression and indiscriminate attacks on 
civilians inside Ukraine, and putting maximum pressure, not 
just on Iran, but maximum pressure on the Russians.
    Ms. McBride. Thank you.
    I am over time. I yield back.
    Mr. Self. The ranking member has agreed that we will have a 
second round.
    So, I recognize myself for 5 minutes. And I will start out. 
I have got a potpourri of questions here.
    But, Dr. Gardiner, you responded to that last, and I 
thought you wanted to give a response to one of those last 
questions. If you will take a few seconds.
    Mr. Gardiner. Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    And I would like to respond to the, to the remarks made by 
Representative McBride because I think the, the comments there 
were absolutely ridiculous. And the attack on the United States 
as a nation supposedly backsliding on democracy bears no 
relation whatsoever to, to reality.
    And I am proud to live in the freest nation on earth. And 
the United States fights every day for freedom and democracy 
across the world. And I find it absolutely astonishing that a 
Member of Congress would compare the United States to Putin's 
Russia.
    And the United States today is the beacon of democracy and 
freedom in the world. And we see that on a daily basis. And I 
just want to mention on the record that I find it absolutely 
appalling that a Member of Congress makes astonishing attacks 
on the United States, full of lies, that carries no relation 
whatsoever to reality.
    American leadership is incredibly powerful on the world 
stage right now. And the United States is leading the NATO 
alliance based upon the principles of freedom, and democracy, 
and individual liberty. We are seeing that.
    And we should be proud of that record, instead of trying to 
tear America down, as the left does all the time. We should be 
proud of everything this great nation stands for, and that 
includes at its very heart the freedom and liberty that is the 
foundation of this great nation. Thank you.
    Mr. Self. Thank you.
    And to get back to some of the details, I would like your 
opinion, Dr. Gardiner, of the arrest warrant for Dodik and the 
potential impact on the Western Balkans, and their refusal to 
carry through with that arrest warrant.
    Mr. Gardiner. Yes. Actually, on that particular issue I am 
going to defer to my colleague Mr. Montgomery, who I think has 
a more detailed----
    Mr. Self. Admiral.
    Mr. Gardiner [continuing]. understanding of that particular 
issue. Thank you.
    Admiral Montgomery. I do think it is a--thank you, Nile--I 
will tell you, I am not optimistic that the arrest warrant will 
be executed. I am confident that Dodik is a criminal and should 
be held accountable.
    And I am afraid I think I share your sentiment concerning 
the previous questions, Nile, that the Balkans are a tinderbox, 
and that our inability to hold Vucic and Dodik accountable is 
eventually going to lead to inflammation and a deeper 
requirement for European and, potentially, America, the United 
States, to get involved.
    So, I wish it would be executed properly. I suspect it 
won't, sir.
    Mr. Self. Okay, very good. We had a very short conversation 
about the Suwalki Gap. That is in my mind the second most 
important issue facing NATO.
    So, would you give us a tutorial on the Suwalki Gap and the 
Kaliningrad enclave and what that enclave represents to Russia?
    Admiral Montgomery. Well, as a retired Army officer, I am 
not surprised you bring that up. But I agree with you 
completely, the Suwalki Gap is a narrow throat that Russia 
would like to grab in order to bring itself with, Greater 
Russia with Belarus, in contact with the Kaliningrad Oblast, 
which is the most heavily fortified geographic position in the 
world.
    Despite the war in Ukraine, the Russians have not backed 
off one iota from packing weapons systems into there that hold 
Poland and the Baltic states at risk. The ability to close that 
I think 60 kilometer gap would be very rapid in war. But I 
believe the Russians can do that. And, certainly, with what 
they have learned in Ukraine they will be able to do that.
    So, I share your concern about the Suwalki Gap. This is one 
of those issues where Europe and NATO need to be thinking very 
hard about how you persistently deter Russia from being able to 
do that.
    I do not think you can get the weapons systems there five, 
six, 7 days after the fact. It will be lost by then. And the 
Baltic states and Poland share your concern.
    Mr. Self. And my last point in my last 30 seconds is FMS 
reform. We have a great need to reform FMS. And I will just 
make that point on the record. We have still billions of 
dollars behind in weapons systems that Taiwan has already paid 
for. Saudi Arabia stands in front of Taiwan for the Harpoon 
missiles, having paid for the re-start.
    So, it is something we cannot take our eye off the ball. 
Ambassador, you mentioned the defense industrial base. FMS 
reform I think is vital for the future of everything we have 
been talking about.
    With that, I yield my time. And I recognize Mr. Keating.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    There is a lot of misinformation, I believe, that is going 
around the U.S. and around the world regarding the commitment 
of our NATO allies, our European allies, in fact, the 50 
country allies that all are working to, as one, to defeat 
Russian aggression in Ukraine.
    So, I would like, Ambassador, could you take some time and 
straighten the record out here. I mean, the contribution from 
Europe is extraordinary. And so, if you could take some time 
and correct some of those misconceptions.
    Ms. Smith. Yes. Thank you very much. There are some folks 
out there that believe that the U.S. has been supporting 
Ukraine over these last three-and-a-half years largely in 
isolation. And that is simply not the case. Our European allies 
have given an enormous amount of support to Ukraine. They have 
housed millions of refugees, they have provided critical 
economic and humanitarian support.
    But they have sent weapons. Some countries have sent them 
everything they had. The Baltics, the Poles, a country like 
Romania that sent essentially all of its air defense, these 
contributions have been critical to what Ukraine has been able 
to do to defend its territory against Russian aggression.
    So, I completely appreciate your point. I think it is 
important for folks to understand that this has been an effort 
not just with our European allies but with 50 countries around 
the world.
    Secretary Austin, when he was Secretary of Defense, 
regularly convened 50 countries from around the world, 
including friends in the Indo=Pacific, to each month send more 
critical support to our friends in Ukraine. One of those 
meetings is happening today. And the U.S. Secretary of Defense 
will not be attending the UDCG, the Ukraine Defense Contact 
Group.
    That is a shame in my mind. It is a group that requires 
U.S. leadership at the highest levels. And the United States 
started this group and it needs to continue to lead it.
    Mr. Keating. Yes, the Contact Group is essential. And, in 
fact, it is a way the U.S. is leveraging, you know, their 
assets around the world, too. And so, I think it is critical in 
that regard.
    I also wanted to just touch base. The Russian elections 
that occurred where they voted to have legitimate control over 
areas of Ukraine in violation of every international law that 
you could think of. How would you categorize those elections?
    Ms. Smith. Well, it is a pretty short answer, 
Representative: it was a sham. And we cannot allow this to 
stand. In my mind, we cannot allow Russia to come in and make 
these assumptions and claims that the Zelenskyy administration 
is somehow a Nazi regime, that this territory that they are 
currently occupying belongs to Russia, that they have a right 
to own Crimea. None of this adheres to Ukraine's very clear 
territorial integrity and sovereignty. And we have to continue 
to stand up and push back against those types of Russian 
assertions.
    Mr. Keating. Speaking of elections, in World War II martial 
law declared in the U.K. They did not have elections then.
    Ms. Smith. Correct. Correct.
    Mr. Keating. And it is somewhat similar with----
    Ms. Smith. So, yes.
    Mr. Keating [continuing]. the Ukraine Constitution.
    Ms. Smith. Right. Right now under martial law.
    Mr. Keating. There is martial law.
    Ms. Smith. They are not voting. Yes.
    Mr. Keating. Martial law was called because of the Russian 
aggression.
    Ms. Smith. Because of the war. Correct.
    Mr. Keating. Their constitution would not allow that even 
if they wanted to have that; is that correct?
    Ms. Smith. Indeed.
    Mr. Keating. Admiral Montgomery, I don't think we spent 
enough time talking about Putin and who he really is. You 
mentioned that in some of your remarks. And we are looking at 
this negotiation that is going on which is, you know, 
negotiations are always a good thing. Talking is always a good 
thing.
    But how would you categorize Putin's response to these 
negotiations?
    Admiral Montgomery. The offer in Istanbul last week was an 
insult to President Trump. President Trump has told President 
Putin several times, come to the table with a serious deal. And 
he has told him stop doing the, you know, Vladimir, stop doing 
the bombing.
    I thought there was a potential this time, there would be a 
reasonable response. But, instead, it was, you know, just a 
laundry list of every illegitimate Russian claim to Ukraine, 
and every ridiculous request that they basically neuter 
themselves, demilitarize, and take no western support.
    It was an absolute insult to President Trump, who has given 
President Putin more than enough time to come to the right 
answer.
    Mr. Keating. Great.
    My time is expired. I yield back.
    Mr. Self. I now recognize the representative from Nevada, 
Ms. Titus.
    Ms. Titus. Thank you.
    Admiral, the Trump administration was not that one that 
eliminated the Global Engagement Center but, rather, you, 
pointing in this direction, I said it wasn't me, but you meant 
Congress simply allowed it to expire.
    Now, the White House Republicans did indeed refuse to 
include the extension of sunset in the Fiscal Year National 
Defense Authorization Act. And based on some sense to debunk 
conspiracy theories.
    But the Biden administration tried to keep their work going 
by putting this mandate in the State Department's Counter 
Foreign Information Manipulation and Interference Office, the 
R/FIMI.
    Now, unfortunately, then on April the 16th Secretary Rubio 
announced the closure of that office as a way to, and I quote, 
``champion free speech.'' Now, since you asserted that Congress 
failed in its decision to not reauthorize the GEC, do you also 
believe that the Trump administration failed in its decision to 
close the R/FIMI?
    Admiral Montgomery. So, and I know your staff will go do 
more research, and you will read that I have written three 
articles condemning the closure of the Global Engagement 
Center, and President Trumps' closure of this.
    I absolutely believe we need to counter disinformation. The 
closure of the Department of Justice, the Federal Bureau of 
Investigation, FBI, and Department of Homeland Security's 
disinformation shops was equally reckless by this 
administration.
    So, I absolutely think that we should be looking for 
disinformation. Russia and China are aggressively conducting 
cyber-enabled economic warfare and influence operations 
campaigns against this country.
    But one final thing I will say is the most deleterious, 
worst information operations campaign going on in this country 
is the use of TikTok. TikTok, you in Congress properly banned 
it last year. President Biden signed it into law.
    TikTok is being used by China to change the social 
narrative in our country to tell the 180 million 18 to 35 year 
olds who use it that the United States is not a great country, 
that China, that China's suppression of Uyghurs is Okay, that 
China's suppression of Taiwan is Okay, that the Russian 
invasion of Ukraine is Okay, and that Hamas' terrorist act 
against Israel is Okay.
    TikTok needs to be banned. To me, that is the worst 
disinformation operation. But I would agree with you completely 
that we need a global, something like the Global Engagement 
Center. I have argued for it for about two-and-a-half years 
now.
    I was just pointing out that the actual problem was 
Congress failing to reauthorize it.
    Ms. Titus. Thank you. I just wanted the record to clearly 
show who all was responsible, and what the whole context of the 
story was. And if I--if you were answering it the way I hoped 
you would I would take offense that you think my staff has to 
do my research. But you can write you own books.
    But thank you for that answer.
    Mr. Self. I now recognize the representative from Illinois, 
Mr. Schneider.
    Mr. Schneider. Thank you, Chairman Self.
    And before I do ask my question, Dr. Gardiner, I have to 
tell you I take great offense at your--respectful people, 
honorable people can disagree on policy. To question Democrats' 
commitment and patriotism is unacceptable.
    I love my country. And I know my colleagues do. I am 
committed to the country like Rear Admiral Montgomery, 
Ambassador Smith, our colleagues here. We take an oath to 
defend the Constitution, and we do that with seriousness and 
integrity.
    So, I take great offense. We live in a great country. We 
are a beacon to the world. I am the father of a Navy veteran. 
Like Admiral Montgomery, he was a surface warfare officer. And 
we can disagree. We don't need to besmirch each other's 
commitment to our country.
    Rear Admiral Montgomery, in your opening remarks you 
stated, and I am going to quote you here, ``I firmly believe 
that NATO can serve as a bulwark that brings trans-Atlantic 
alliance through the challenges posed by a rapacious 
authoritarian State, Russia, and the China-led axis of 
aggressors that supports and enables Russia.'' And I agree on 
that.
    My question for you: is it can, or is it must? Must NATO be 
at that forefront?
    Admiral Montgomery. In my written I said ``can,'' and in my 
oral I said ``must,'' because I believe it is must.
    I mean, look, there is no substitute for us. I agree with 
Nile and his characterization of French President Macron's 
initiatives here. They are going to go nowhere. It needs to be 
us. It needs to be NATO.
    And myself, Chairman Self, others have served with NATO 
over 40, 50 years. We are the bulwark of democracy in Europe. 
And we are the only thing that is strong enough to defeat them 
together.
    Europe has to spend more. We have to spend more. We are 
going to go below 3 percent in real GDP, defense spending in 
GDP, not the numbers that we get from some disarmament agency 
in Scandinavia. We are going to go below 3 percent over the 
next two to 3 years.
    We need to get ours up. They need to get theirs up. It is 
the only way we can defend ourselves.
    Mr. Schneider. And I think it was Ambassador Smith, you 
talked about it, we need to do that in a coordinated way. We 
need to have a strategy. And a strategy follows a vision of the 
role of NATO, what role it plays today but also into the 
future.
    What do you see as the role for NATO looking to the future?
    Ms. Smith. Well, I would like to see Russia--I mean, I 
would like to see the alliance complete that strategy on 
Russia. I think existing in a world where the allies can't 
agree on a Russia strategy doesn't bode well for the future in 
this huge surge of spending.
    But from a more technical perspective, I think NATO can 
help drive co-production. We have heard a couple of great 
examples today.
    I often point to the case of Spain, Romania, Germany, and 
the Netherlands coming together with Raytheon to build the GEM-
T missiles for the Patriots. Those types of co-production 
efforts are the wave of the future. And NATO can help that 
happen, but not if the alliance is hemorrhaging trust and 
Europeans feel like they want to back away from us.
    So, the U.S. has to recommit. This summit is going to be 
very important in terms of the signals the Trump administration 
is going to send. And it should, in my mind, allow the alliance 
to move forward both with the Russia strategy, and allow it to 
push forward on those joint ventures that I just mentioned.
    Mr. Schneider. I couldn't agree more. You answered, 
actually, my followup question, which is that U.S. role.
    What is the impact of messages coming from the 
administration, the going one way on Monday, and a different 
way on Tuesday, and a complete reversal on Wednesday? What is 
the impact of getting to the strategy and the vision we need to 
achieve?
    Ms. Smith. Let me give you just one example of where we are 
with public attitudes in Europe.
    In Denmark they have created this app on your phone so that 
you can go through the store and find U.S. products so that you 
can avoid them. That is where we are right now.
    Mr. Schneider. I attended a----
    Ms. Smith. In Denmark.
    Mr. Schneider. Yes. I attended a wedding in Canada last 
weekend, week before last, and----
    Ms. Smith. It is not good. It is not good.
    Mr. Schneider [continuing]. we went in to buy a bottle of 
wine. There is no American alcohol in the liquor stores. And we 
are seeing that.
    Rear Admiral Montgomery, let me give you the last word 
here. What is the impact of the inconsistency from the U.S. if 
we are going to achieve the strategy you talked about, if NATO 
must lead the way?
    Admiral Montgomery. As a military planner, I ran our plans 
in U.S. European Command and our operations in the U.S. Pacific 
Command through my career. And the one thing that any military 
planner or operator wants is consistency. We need to have 
consistent, stable resources, operational plans, and direction 
from senior leadership.
    In the end, the President makes the direction, and we need 
to flex to it. But consistency is always a preferred condition.
    Mr. Schneider. Thank you.
    And with that, I yield back.
    Mr. Self. I thank the witnesses for their valuable 
testimony, the members for their questions.
    The members of the subcommittee may have some additional 
questions for the witnesses. I will ask you to respond to those 
in writing. I will certainly have one.
    Pursuant to committee rules, all members may have 5 days to 
submit statements, questions, and extraneous materials for the 
record, subject to the length and limitations.
    Without objection, the committee stands adjourned.

                                APPENDIX

                              ----------                              


               Material Submitted for the Hearing Record
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT

                                 [all]